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Pizza

#1 User is offline   Vindii 

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 09:25 PM

Made a couple pies tonight. It took 1.5 hours to preheat the stones. Got them good and hot though.

Hood was about 730

Posted Image

First pie took about 4 minutes. Cheese and pepperoni for the kids.

Posted Image

Second one took about 5-6 minutes. Cheese, pepperoni, red onion, homemade hot Italian sausage. Made a big can of sauce using 6 n 1 ground tomatoes that came out really good.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Only 2 pieces left…
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#2 User is offline   fire angel 

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 08:37 AM

That looks delicious!!!

Do you have to pre cook the Italian sausage or does it get done all at once? Also are you using a 2 stone setup? I have been kicking around a stone for my Summit 450, but I don't know if I need to get a 2 stone set-up or not.
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#3 User is offline   Vindii 

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 08:54 AM

View Postfire angel, on 10 May 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

That looks delicious!!!

Do you have to pre cook the Italian sausage or does it get done all at once? Also are you using a 2 stone setup? I have been kicking around a stone for my Summit 450, but I don't know if I need to get a 2 stone set-up or not.


Thanks.

I precook the sausage. Otherwise it doesn't get cooked enough.

I use two stones separated by 1" ceramic spacers. It helps block the direct heat so the top stone is not way too hot. For exaple when I was measuring the stone temp yesterday the lower stone was easily 150 degrees hotter than the top. And it varied about 150 degrees as I went around the stone due to the gaps that the plate setter does cover.
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#4 User is offline   richlife 

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 10:38 AM

That looks absolutely sumptuous, Vindii! You need to come visit and show me how! (Doesn't have to be a LONG trip -- it only takes my 330 about 15 - 20 minutes to heat up two large stones.) :rolleyes:

I say "come visit" because last evening I tried making crust for the first time. (I've done pizza a lot but only select frozen brands or using store bought crust.) After 2 hours I just ended up with a 3 lb. gloppy mess. (We ended up having leftover smoked spare ribs -- not bad, but NOT pizza!) :(

I'll try again tonight, but lordy! (I THINK the yeast I used was bad but don't really know if that could have been the problem -- got fresh yeast now.) I'm trying to mix this by hand to start so I know what to expect before I start using our mixer with bread bars.

BTW, you may know. The recipe I have calls for 3 cups of flour and 1/4 tsp. of kosher salt (among other things). But the recipe from the same people for machine mixed rather than hand mixed calls for exactly the same ingredients but 1 1/2 tsp. of kosher salt. Do you know why that might be?

Anyway, thanks for providing inspiration (once again) -- I swear I will not let a pizza dough defeat me! :angry:

Rich
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#5 User is offline   Tubby's Smokehouse 

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:43 AM

View Postrichlife, on 10 May 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

That looks absolutely sumptuous, Vindii! You need to come visit and show me how! (Doesn't have to be a LONG trip -- it only takes my 330 about 15 - 20 minutes to heat up two large stones.) :rolleyes:

I say "come visit" because last evening I tried making crust for the first time. (I've done pizza a lot but only select frozen brands or using store bought crust.) After 2 hours I just ended up with a 3 lb. gloppy mess. (We ended up having leftover smoked spare ribs -- not bad, but NOT pizza!) :(

I'll try again tonight, but lordy! (I THINK the yeast I used was bad but don't really know if that could have been the problem -- got fresh yeast now.) I'm trying to mix this by hand to start so I know what to expect before I start using our mixer with bread bars.

BTW, you may know. The recipe I have calls for 3 cups of flour and 1/4 tsp. of kosher salt (among other things). But the recipe from the same people for machine mixed rather than hand mixed calls for exactly the same ingredients but 1 1/2 tsp. of kosher salt. Do you know why that might be?

Anyway, thanks for providing inspiration (once again) -- I swear I will not let a pizza dough defeat me! :angry:

Rich

Vindii does have his dough down, always looks nice and airy, you keep can your yeast in the freezer Rich, it matters if your using dry (active) yeast or bakers yeast as well. I have heard that to much salt will also kill yeast, one way to tell is to "proof" it by putting some of it in warm water (105° - 115° F) mixed with a bit of sugar. If it doesn't get foamy within ten minutes, you'll need to get fresher yeast, so if its not foamy don't put it in your flour.

I believe (Vindii might know) but there is a difference between making dough in a bread machine verses by hand or with a stand mixer



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#6 User is offline   richlife 

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:51 AM

View PostTubby, on 10 May 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

Vindii does have his dough down, always looks nice and airy, you keep can your yeast in the freezer Rich, it matters if your using dry (active) yeast or bakers yeast as well. I have heard that to much salt will also kill yeast, one way to tell is to "proof" it by putting some of it in warm water (105° - 115° F) mixed with a bit of sugar. If it doesn't get foamy within ten minutes, you'll need to get fresher yeast, so if its not foamy don't put it in your flour.

I believe (Vindii might know) but there is a difference between making dough in a bread machine verses by hand or with a stand mixer

There is a plethora of info on any type of pizza dough you want here:
http://www.pizzamaki...forum/index.php



Thanks, jim. I ought to have remembered about keeping my yeast in the freezer, but too much time since my brewing days years ago.

And you mentioned a difference between by hand or stand mixer or a bread machine. Just to be clear, I will be doing it by hand or a stand mixer. (That's what I meant by machine, but the recipe may be referring to a bread machine -- good to know.)

And the link, thanks again, but I still have that from some time back when you provided it. :)

Rich
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#7 User is offline   Tubby's Smokehouse 

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:26 PM

View Postrichlife, on 10 May 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

Thanks, jim. I ought to have remembered about keeping my yeast in the freezer, but too much time since my brewing days years ago.

And you mentioned a difference between by hand or stand mixer or a bread machine. Just to be clear, I will be doing it by hand or a stand mixer. (That's what I meant by machine, but the recipe may be referring to a bread machine -- good to know.)

And the link, thanks again, but I still have that from some time back when you provided it. :)

Rich

I most often do it by hand, then hand toss it, so it has that nice air you see in Vindii's, my bread machine always makes the pizza dough to dense (well like bread) and its cycle is an hour, Vindii will know this also, but I assume you can over knead it as well, I personally only use a rolling pin if I want a cracker like crisp thin crust, something about pushing all the air out of the dough, makes it more dense also.

I usually only use two cups of flour for one good sized pie, so by hand is pretty easy, Vindii is most often making several pizza's so he would get a good work out kneading 8 cups of flour, I believe he mentioned a had a nice stand unit, I know with my wife's mixer it only takes 5-10 minutes to knead.
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#8 User is offline   Vindii 

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:40 PM

Rich - This is the dough recipe I use. If you have a scale that the easiest and then I can give the weights. I weight the water and flour only.

Bread Flour: 2 cups (246.76g)
Cold Water: 1/2 cup plus about 6 teaspoons (152.99g)
IDY: 0.33 tsp
Salt: 0.77 tsp
Olive Oil: 0.55 tsp
Note: Dough is for a single 14" pizza

I'd say if your recipe calls for 3 cups of flour then you should be closer to 1 tsp salt. 1/4 would be too low.

I'd go right to the stand mixer if I were you. Mixing by hand sucks and I don't think you'll gain anything in your learning process. You should be able to dump all the stuff in the mixer and using the dough hook let it mix for 8 minutes or so.

I keep my yeast in the fridge. No problems with it. It last a looong time.

Are you using IDY or ADY? That will change your process a bit. IDY gets added right to the flour without proofing. ADY needs to be proofed in warm water before mixing with the rest of the stuff.

Let me know if you need any other help. You'll be happy once you get it down. Homemade pizza is great.

On a side note I'd be surprised if your 330 gets a couple of stones up to 600+ in 15 minutes. Stones take a long time to warm up. You really wont know unless you have a IR gun to take the temp of them. Yesterday after about an hour of warm up time my hood temp was 750 while my stones were still under 500. You can imagine how a pizza will cook like that. Bottom raw while the top is burnt. It took 1.5 hours to get everything up to temp and equalized.

Many problems with pizza on gas grill (and my kegs too) is that the stone is very close to the burners and it heat up higher than the hood temp. This is the reason Shelly started to use the 2 stone set-up. Start the pie on the lower stone and let the bottom cook. Before it burns the bottom move it to the cooler stone. Know what I know now there's no reason to move it. Just put both stone on the lower grate with some spacer in between to get some air flow. Cook right on the top stone as the bottom one will block it from getting to hot. Take a long time to heat up that top stone since its basically indirect.
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#9 User is offline   richlife 

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 02:09 PM

Ok, Vindii (and jim), thanks. I'll let you know how it goes and give more info on where I got my recipe when I decide whether I'm satisfied it's good. Much good info (especially for a novice) there if all is well. That recipe says it's enough for two 14" crusts.

And thanks for the tip on the salt and going the mixer route. We have an older Oster stand mixer/food processor/blender that seems excellent, but Sheila rarely uses it. I'm sort of testing it to see if it really does what it says (including meat grinder).

IDY/ADY -- well, THAT threw me for a bit -- had to look it up. I had gotten so that I always used active liquid yeast in brewing. That had a short life expectancy and I always checked dates before buying.

What I have now is both IDY and ADY types. Do you have a preference?

Based on what you said, I'm sure my stone may not be the same heat as the hood temp. I use the raised grate, but only one stone (normally -- I've also worked with two). Starting with the store dough, I spread (roll) the dough on the stone and heat it with the stone starting with a cold grill. Typical pizza baking times apply and the crust and pizza come out perfectly. (I've used temp ranges from 450 to 650.) Again, I'll let you know how my technique works with my own crust. But first, what I'm trying is to prepare the crust and pizza directly on the grates.

(IR gun! Sheesh! We'll need to call you The Techno Griller! :P

Rich
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#10 User is offline   Vindii 

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 03:01 PM

I like instant dry yeast (IDY) because it easier. It just gets added to the dry ingredient. Simple. ADY work just fine too but it needs to be proofed in warm water for about 10 minutes before using it. You can use either or for any recipe. If I recall you us about 1/3 less yeast if the recipe calls for ADY and your using IDY. I believe that IDY is stronger.

FYI - Yeast sold as bread machine yeast is IDY.

Post the recipe your following. I'd like to see it. If its for 2 14" pies it should be close to double what I posted above. There's not much to pizza dough so it should not be too far off. If there's sugar in it I'd skip it.
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#11 User is offline   Tubby's Smokehouse 

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 04:10 PM

I'm with Vindii Rich skip the sugar.

I only use one stone as well on a raised rack, if you need the burner below the stone on for heat put anything on the grate below the rack to deflect the heat some, now its like the center rack of the oven, pretty even heat top and bottom, I cook the pie all at once, Vindii has good luck with his pies at real high heat, I most often will make a 4-5 topping pizza lots of veggies raw so I go lower in the 500 range, or the pie seams a little soggy, because the outer crust will burn, before the middle crust cooks through, I find the thin crust minimal topping pies like the 8-900F heat and cook in just a few minutes.

I also agree with Vindii, 2 cups of flour gets you one 14-16 inch pie about 3/8"s thick at the edges a 1/8" in the middle.

If you like pan pizza just put the dough in a skillet with some oil on the edges and instead of sitting on a stone its like you popped it in the oven.


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#12 User is offline   richlife 

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 07:57 PM

Well, now I'm pretty positive the problem yesterday was the yeast. This time I got much better froth and from the start the dough started to form up as I expected. I did do it by hand -- not really a big deal. If I'm doing a large batch though, I'd definitely use the mixer.

The book I'm using is "Pizza on the Grill" by Karmel and Blumer. I like what I see and they have some great ideas. Like many others, they suggest grilling the crust on the grates, adding toppings and then returning to the grill. Sounds good to me, but tonight, the crust tore and I had to start over and do my usual.

Thankfully, the usual fresh dough technique I describe before worked fine. Just need to let it go a little longer. (Sheila accuses me of "burning" the pizza if it's done a little more than she likes -- in other words, the way I like it. :ph34r: ) But tonight, though she agrees it could have been a little crisper, she said this was the best crust we've had. As usual, I think it needs work, but maybe next time. (jim, this goes back to what you said. If I can do better, I get to do the cooking -- or have to do the cooking, depending on your point of view. <_< )

Vindi, the recipe is similar to yours, but as you said, calls for a little sugar.

1 cup water
1/4 cup olive oil
1 tsp sugar or honey (I went ahead and used honey despite your advice -- next time)
1 pkg ADY
3 cups flour
1/4 tsp salt (I doubled it)

Everything went well and I ended up with enough dough for two pizzas. But we like the crust very thin -- and that may be why it tore when I tried to pick it up to put on the grill. I re-grouuped and re-rolled the crust but on my stone as I described above. It came out ok -- light but not crisp enough.

I froze the other ball and will try again soon. I'll start another thread to follow that trip.

Thanks for your help guys. Mostly I'm glad I finally made that last step and made my own crust. Or maybe next to last step -- now I need refinement. Nothing like doing something with success to understand just what it's all about.

Rich
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#13 User is offline   Tubby's Smokehouse 

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 08:33 PM

View Postrichlife, on 10 May 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

Well, now I'm pretty positive the problem yesterday was the yeast. This time I got much better froth and from the start the dough started to form up as I expected. I did do it by hand -- not really a big deal. If I'm doing a large batch though, I'd definitely use the mixer.

The book I'm using is "Pizza on the Grill" by Karmel and Blumer. I like what I see and they have some great ideas. Like many others, they suggest grilling the crust on the grates, adding toppings and then returning to the grill. Sounds good to me, but tonight, the crust tore and I had to start over and do my usual.

Thankfully, the usual fresh dough technique I describe before worked fine. Just need to let it go a little longer. (Sheila accuses me of "burning" the pizza if it's done a little more than she likes -- in other words, the way I like it. :ph34r: ) But tonight, though she agrees it could have been a little crisper, she said this was the best crust we've had. As usual, I think it needs work, but maybe next time. (jim, this goes back to what you said. If I can do better, I get to do the cooking -- or have to do the cooking, depending on your point of view. <_< )

Vindi, the recipe is similar to yours, but as you said, calls for a little sugar.

1 cup water
1/4 cup olive oil
1 tsp sugar or honey (I went ahead and used honey despite your advice -- next time)
1 pkg ADY
3 cups flour
1/4 tsp salt (I doubled it)

Everything went well and I ended up with enough dough for two pizzas. But we like the crust very thin -- and that may be why it tore when I tried to pick it up to put on the grill. I re-grouuped and re-rolled the crust but on my stone as I described above. It came out ok -- light but not crisp enough.

I froze the other ball and will try again soon. I'll start another thread to follow that trip.

Thanks for your help guys. Mostly I'm glad I finally made that last step and made my own crust. Or maybe next to last step -- now I need refinement. Nothing like doing something with success to understand just what it's all about.

Rich

Sounds good Rich, if you have a peel, put a little corn meal on it and build the pie on it, even the thinnest of crusts will "roll" off the peel like little ball bearings are under it. once it is cooked I assume you're having no problem getting it off the stone? I would for sure try preheating the stone.

Myself I have tried the basically twice baked pizza by putting the dough on the grates first, then build a pie then re grill, I never acquired a taste for it.

In my opinion for crisp thin, you need high heat and cook fast, kinda like a tortilla you put it on a hot surface quick, if its not real hot it just doesn't brown up, like trying to make dark toast on a low setting you end up with dry bread :)
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#14 User is offline   yooper829 

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 09:27 PM

richlife said:

1336697865[/url]' post='86095']
Well, now I'm pretty positive the problem yesterday was the yeast. This time I got much better froth and from the start the dough started to form up as I expected. I did do it by hand -- not really a big deal. If I'm doing a large batch though, I'd definitely use the mixer.

The book I'm using is "Pizza on the Grill" by Karmel and Blumer. I like what I see and they have some great ideas. Like many others, they suggest grilling the crust on the grates, adding toppings and then returning to the grill. Sounds good to me, but tonight, the crust tore and I had to start over and do my usual.

Thankfully, the usual fresh dough technique I describe before worked fine. Just need to let it go a little longer. (Sheila accuses me of "burning" the pizza if it's done a little more than she likes -- in other words, the way I like it. :ph34r: ) But tonight, though she agrees it could have been a little crisper, she said this was the best crust we've had. As usual, I think it needs work, but maybe next time. (jim, this goes back to what you said. If I can do better, I get to do the cooking -- or have to do the cooking, depending on your point of view. <_< )

Vindi, the recipe is similar to yours, but as you said, calls for a little sugar.

1 cup water
1/4 cup olive oil
1 tsp sugar or honey (I went ahead and used honey despite your advice -- next time)
1 pkg ADY
3 cups flour
1/4 tsp salt (I doubled it)

Everything went well and I ended up with enough dough for two pizzas. But we like the crust very thin -- and that may be why it tore when I tried to pick it up to put on the grill. I re-grouuped and re-rolled the crust but on my stone as I described above. It came out ok -- light but not crisp enough.

I froze the other ball and will try again soon. I'll start another thread to follow that trip.

Thanks for your help guys. Mostly I'm glad I finally made that last step and made my own crust. Or maybe next to last step -- now I need refinement. Nothing like doing something with success to understand just what it's all about.

Rich


Rich
One trick to getting your thin crust to the grill after you roll it is to simply fold it in half first....makes it twice as thick, easier to transport, then just open it up once your on the grill. And I second the cornmeal trick for not only ease of removing but for a little extra crunch and texture!
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#15 User is offline   Vindii 

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 08:33 AM

View Postyooper829, on 10 May 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

Rich
One trick to getting your thin crust to the grill after you roll it is to simply fold it in half first....makes it twice as thick, easier to transport, then just open it up once your on the grill. And I second the cornmeal trick for not only ease of removing but for a little extra crunch and texture!


Rich

I have the same book. I've never tried the dough recipe though. Looking at what you post above it seem you will have a very high hydration dough. In other word a very wet sloppy dough. Seem like there should be another cup of flour in it?

Ive never cooked dough right on the grates like they say in the book. My opinion is that they could not figure out how to use a stone properly in a grill so they settled on this method. You just never see pizzerias cooking dough right over open flames. I'm not saying it wont work as I'm sure it will but its going to be a different type of dough and pizza. It might be why the dough is so wet?

Id like to see the result once you get it dial in though. I still might have to try it too.

I need to start working on a thin crust dough. The NY style I have down pretty good. I need to get a dough docker though (I think?)
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